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W123 280TE Motor stottert : Techniek

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W123 280TE Motor stottert

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W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JvdR » 13 okt 2022, 14:12

Hallo Allemaal,

Al sinds ik de auto vorig jaar in mijn bezit heb is het zo dat de warme motor slecht start als deze even stilgestaan heeft. Bij het stationair lopen trad er in een onregelmatige frequentie af en toe een 'rilling' op.
Heb hier op het forum gelezen dat het vervangen van de drukaccumulator, benzinefilter en -pomp onder de achterzijde een mogelijke oplossing voor dit probleem kan zijn.

Omdat met bovenstaande punten goed valt te rijden heb ik hier nog niets aan gedaan en voorrang gegeven aan andere klussen.

Echter, de laatste keer dat ik met de auto reed was het een ander verhaal.
De motor doet het ineens een stuk slechter. Bij het stationair draaien loopt de motor precies half om half een aantal seconden stotterend of normaal. Verder stottert de motor ook behoorlijk als ik gas geef bij het wegrijden waardoor het even lijkt of de auto helemaal niet van zijn plek komt. Bij het tussentijds accelereren gebeurt hetzelfde.
Eenmaal op gang is de trilling/stotter nog wel aanwezig maar nauwelijks merkbaar.

Ik heb op het internet (uiteraard ook in dit forum) gezocht naar deze specifieke storing maar kan daar eigenlijk niets over vinden. Het lijkt mij toch iets in de brandstoftoevoer te zijn maar ik word er niet veel wijzer van.
Daarom mijn vraag of iemand weet in welke richting ik het moet zoeken.
JvdR
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor M.Elalili » 14 okt 2022, 14:21

Het eerste waar ik zelf naar zou kijken, is kleppen. Wanneer zijn deze voor het laatst gesteld?

Ik heb ook een zelfde situatie gehad, net toen ik de auto had gekocht, de dag erna. Even zelf kleppen gesteld en het horten en stoten was meteen weg en de motor liep weer rustig. Klepspeling was echt helemaal verkeerd. Ik weet niet of dit de oplossing zal zijn, maar van meerdere mede-forumleden gelezen dat een van de eerste dingen die je moet checken bij rare dingen, klepspeling is!

Als deze goed staan, dan verder kijken.
M.Elalili
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JvdR » 15 okt 2022, 13:54

Bedankt voor je reactie en de tip.

Hoewel je niets uit moet sluiten geloof ik niet dat het aan de kleppen ligt. Deze zijn in augustus gesteld en toen liep de motor heel netjes.
Sinds die tijd is er denk ik niet meer dan 500 Km mee gereden.

Misschien zie ik het verkeerd (ben nog redelijk onervaren) maar als het wel aan de kleppen zou liggen zou deze storing zich toch niet van de ene op de andere dag voordoen maar meer geleidelijk optreden?
JvdR
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor RD500sec » 15 okt 2022, 18:06

Weet je ook hoe oud bougies, bougiekabels, rotor en verdelerkap zijn?

Een doorslaande bougiekabel zou de veroorzaker kunnen zijn.
De laatste tijd is het vochtig of zelfs nat, wat de vonkoverslag bevordert, daarvoor is het lange tijd kurkdroog geweest, waardoor het toen mogelijk niet is opgetreden.

Kleppen die 500 km terug gesteld zijn, zou ik niet direct verdenken, inderdaad.
Met vriendelijke groet, Richard
RD500sec
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JvdR » 15 okt 2022, 18:51

Volgens de vorige eigenaar zijn o.a. de kabels en bougies in 2018 vernieuwd.
Hij heeft er hierna zo'n 10.000 Km meegereden en ik vanaf vorig jaar augustus ongeveer 2000.
JvdR
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor RD500sec » 16 okt 2022, 12:18

2018 is inmiddels 4 jaar geleden.
Heb je ten minste de bougies eruit gehaald en bekeken?

Jij vraagt naar een richting om te zoeken, die wordt je aangereikt, het is aan jou om er iets mee te doen.
Met vriendelijke groet, Richard
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JantjeV8 » 18 okt 2022, 07:30

Soms willen kabels nog wel eens zich verraden als je in het donker wat water met een plantenspuitje er omheen nevelt. Als de kabels slecht zijn, zie en hoor je dat dan direct. Maar ook de rotor en de contacten binnenin de verdeelkap kunnen flink geoxideerd zijn.
Massakabel niet afgebroken?
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JvdR » 18 okt 2022, 17:42

Dank voor de reacties maar het lukt qua tijd even niet om bij de auto te gaan kijken en met de plantenspuit aan de gang te gaan (staat op een kwartier rijden van huis) maar hopelijk lukt dat uiterlijk vrijdag wel. Ik kom er dus nog op terug.
JvdR
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor Wietse » 20 okt 2022, 07:59

wat een vorige eigenaar ook verteld, wil niet zeggen dat dit daadwerkelijk gedaan is.

je moet ergens beginnen:

bougies bekijken
compressie meten
kabels
rotor
verdelerkap
bobine
vacuum lek
injectoren
stuwklep recht?
luchtfilter
benzine filter( kan heel oud zijn en dan verpulverd het van binnen)
en dan ook maar gelijk de drukaccummulator. let wel op dat je de juiste besteld en niet zomaar van een kenteken afgaat, en de geperste slangen, en leidingen krijg je soms moeilijk los of helemaal niet los,kruipolie en nogs eens kruipolie en dagen laten inwerken. of een aantal dagen iedere x inspuiten

het zijn heerlijke auto's, met die 280 motoren, succes

wietse
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JvdR » 22 okt 2022, 12:16

Ook nog dank aan Wietse voor de tips.

Gisteren met de plantenspuit in de weer geweest maar dat leverde geen bijzonderheden op, alles bleef vonkloos.
Verdelerkap, rotor en kabels zien er goed uit en zitten overal ook goed vast. Ook de massakabel heeft een goede verbinding. De bougies zien er droog uit met een licht grijsbruine aanslag.

Compressie meten is even een stap te ver voor mij omdat ik geen meter heb.

Misschien moet het toch gezocht worden in de brandstoftoevoer. Gezien het gedrag van de motor (precies elke vijf seconden wisselend goed stationair en stotterend met ploffen in de uitlaat) lijkt het dat er iets in de weg zit voor een constante stroom benzine. Maar goed dat is mijn idee als leek.

Volgende week zal ik eens onder de achterkant kijken bij de drukaccumulator, brandstoffilter en brandstofpomp.
Heb mijn garagekrik even uitgeleend anders had ik dat gisteren al gedaan.

Bedankt voor meedenken!
JvdR
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor snollie » 23 okt 2022, 02:00

Heb je nog een ontsteking met contactpuntjes? Dan zou ik die even nakijken.
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snollie
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor MB280E » 23 okt 2022, 11:17

Deze heeft een electronische ontsteking.
Heeft uw wagen een kat? Originele NL?
Welk bouwjaar heeft deze wagen?
Het probleem kan in een beetje van alles zitten.
Ontsteking en/of brandstof.
Loopt deze op gas? Of heeft deze op gas gelopen?

Lees net dat het een Duister is. Dan heeft deze mogelijks een kat met bijhorende sturing. Denk dat daar het probleem in zit.(in de sturing)
Zou hem terug origineel zetten.
280E 1982 5-bak verbruik 1/8 viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8038&start=0
560SL 1985 automaat verbruik 1/... viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12374&start=0
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MB280E
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JantjeV8 » 25 okt 2022, 10:11

Ploffen in de uitlaat is qua afstelling een te rijk mengsel, mits de mechanische ademhaling in orde is.

Zeikende injector?
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JantjeV8
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor RD500sec » 25 okt 2022, 10:30

De bougies zien er, zoals je het omschrijft, goed uit. De verbranding lijkt in orde, geen olie aanslag wat het stotteren kan verklaren.

Het brandstofpomp relais zou ook het probleem kunnen zijn. Je zou kunnen proberen of je met het relais verwijdert en de busjes 30 en 87 in de voet waar het relais uit komt, door te verbinden met een draadje en ronde AMP stekkers. Hierdoor draait de pomp continu, het is dus bij wijze van test. Is het stotteren nu over kun je het relais vervangen of repareren, je kunt het open maken en de solderingen even opnieuw laten vloeien, vaak zijn de solderingen waar de werkstroom door gaat gebroken.

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D3B449BE-D847-462D-B74D-9D54DF87D7A5.jpeg
D3B449BE-D847-462D-B74D-9D54DF87D7A5.jpeg (234.85 KiB)


Hier een voorbeeld van een W124 met doorverbonden busjes en brandstofpomprelais verwijdert.
Met vriendelijke groet, Richard
RD500sec
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Geregistreerd: 03 okt 2014, 17:25
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JvdR » 02 nov 2022, 12:24

Sorry dat ik even niets heb laten weten maar andere zaken hadden mijn aandacht nodig.

De ontsteking gaat inderdaad met contactpuntjes. Puntjes en rotor zien er gebruikt uit om het zo maar te zeggen maar naar mijn idee niet zo slecht dat dit het probleem is.

Voor zover ik weet heeft er geen gasinstallatie ingezeten.

Ik kan geen sonde of iets dergelijks ontdekken. Een katalysator lijkt me dus niet aanwezig.

Het trucje met het doorverbinden van het brandstofpomprelais moet ik nog uitproberen.

De brandstofpomp en het filter zien eruit alsof deze er nog niet zo lang onder zitten.
De accumulator lijkt meer dienstjaren te hebben. Zie de foto.
Bijlagen
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IMG_20221029_164151756.jpg
IMG_20221029_164151756.jpg (80.3 KiB)
JvdR
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor Weizengelb » 04 nov 2022, 09:19

Hoi Jan,

Je auto ziet er (van onderen) netjes en goed onderhouden uit. Dat geeft moed om ook dit probleem netjes op te lossen.
De Pomp en filter en de slangen zien er nog nieuw uit, een goed teken. (Er zit wel een los slangetje wit/geel?)

Het is toch goed om de brandstofdruk eens te meten. Dan kun je de koude brandstof stuurdruk meten. De stuurdruk duwt boven op de luchtschijf van de K-Jetronik en deze moet koud laag zijn en dan oplopen wanneer de motor warm wordt. Hiervoor heb je een geschikte drukmeter met slangen en aansluitingen nodig. Hiervoor zijn ook setjes te koop.

Wat betreft de ontsteking, volgens mij moet op een 280TE een kontaktloze ontsteking zitten met een zogenaamde 'ster" in de verdeler in plaats van kontaktpunten. Je zou de ontsteking eens een keer kunnen laten controleren bij een Bosch service of zo met een oscilloscoop.

Doet de auto het op snelheid wel goed? Heeft hij genoeg vermogen en haalt ook vlot hogere snelheden? (dan is de brandstoftoevoer in de regel voldoende en ook de uitlaat heeft voldoende gasafvoer.)

Soms een hele puzzel! Succes alvast,

Groeten Math
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IMG_6309.jpg (80 KiB)
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Weizengelb
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Berichten: 2689
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Type wagen: 220D
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor RD500sec » 04 nov 2022, 15:13

Met vriendelijke groet, Richard
RD500sec
Technisch adviseur
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Berichten: 1315
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Type wagen: 230TE
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Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JvdR » 07 nov 2022, 14:16

Math en RD500sec, bedankt.

Volgens mij zit het wit/gele slangetje wel aan beide zijden vast. Zal het in ieder geval nog even controleren.

Snelheid maken lukt uiteindelijk wel. Als je bij stilstand het gaspedaal intrapt gebeurt heel even niets waarna hij stotterend van zijn plek komt. Rijdt de auto eenmaal met zo'n 10 á 15 km/h dan wordt wel redelijk normaal snelheid gemaakt maar je voelt nog steeds heel licht het stotteren op de achtergrond. Ik ben met deze storing nog niet de snelweg op geweest maar in de stad valt er wel mee te rijden hoewel het geen zeker gevoel geeft.

Het meten van de brandstofdruk is voor mij misschien nog een stap te ver maar ik zal toch wel eens naar kijken.

De contactpunten heb ik al eens schoongemaakt maar dat gaf geen resultaat. Ik zal eens kijken of er een Bosch servicepunt in de buurt is.

Vervelend is dat ik op het moment met veel zaken tegelijk bezig ben waardoor de tijd (ook om snel op reacties te reageren) een beetje ontbreekt om er even flink mee aan de slag te gaan. Ben net iets meer dan een half jaar met pensioen maar heb het drukker dan op mijn werk.
Maar fijn dat er hier meegedacht wordt.
JvdR
Fresh Boarder
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Roepnaam:
Type wagen: 280TE
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Automaat: Ja
LPG: Nee


Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor JvdR » 16 nov 2022, 13:50

Het probleem is opgelost.

Ik heb het advies van Math opgevolgd en de auto bij een Bosch Servicecenter laten onderzoeken.
Ze hadden er even voor nodig maar het bleek inderdaad aan de ontsteking te liggen. Er waren twee slechte bougiekabels en daarnaast bleken de rotor en contactpunten zodanig versleten dat het opzuiveren hiervan geen soelaas meer bood. (Ze hebben het overigens wel geprobeerd.)

De bougiekabels, die volgens de vorige eigenaar niet eens zo oud waren, zouden volgens de monteur slecht zijn geworden doordat ze te strak met tiewraps bij elkaar gebonden waren. De isolatie werd hierdoor verslechterd.

Alle bougiekabels, de rotor en de verdelerkap zijn vervangen door nieuwe en het stotteren is nu helemaal verdwenen.

Nog even over het geel/witte slangetje waarvan Math opmerkte dat deze aan een kant los zit. Dat klopt, hij zit inderdaad los. Ik kon echter geen punt vinden waarop deze aangesloten zou moeten worden.
Misschien dat dit slangetje bij de (niet werkende) standkachel hoort. Deze kachel weer aan de praat krijgen staat voorlopig niet hoog op de klussenlijst.

Iedereen bedankt voor het meedenken!
JvdR
Fresh Boarder
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Berichten: 13
Geregistreerd: 08 aug 2021, 11:53
Roepnaam:
Type wagen: 280TE
Bouwjaar: 1985
Automaat: Ja
LPG: Nee


Re: W123 280TE Motor stottert

Berichtdoor RD500sec » 16 nov 2022, 18:22

Met vriendelijke groet, Richard
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Berichten: 1315
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LPG: Nee

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